RBG, #MeToo, Comedy, and Pregnancy
Irin Carmon and Lizz Winstead
Welcome to the Quarantine Creatives newsletter, a companion to my podcast of the same name. If this is your first time here, welcome! I had a number of new subscribers join this past week and I’m glad to have you along. To receive this newsletter every week in your inbox, please subscribe for free!
How Do We Support Women?
This week, I had the good fortune to speak with two women who have had really amazing careers. It’s a little strange to think that even as we sit here on the cusp of 2021, a “successful woman” can still sometimes feel like an anomaly. I feel like one common thread in this week’s interviews that may help explain the gender disparity is how we approach pregnancy in this country.
When I spoke with journalist Irin Carmon, she described her experience giving birth over the summer and learning to juggle new parenting responsibilities with her husband (more on that below). Of course, part of what has allowed her family to still have ambitious careers is institutional support in the form of paid leave for both parents. Leave like this is not guaranteed in the U.S., and even employers that offer it on paper may pressure employees to limit that perk. Irin is also fortunate to have the support of a partner in raising her daughter, and they have both prioritized childcare and careers.
I discussed the other end of the pregnancy spectrum with Lizz Winstead, a comedian who also advocates for abortion rights. Without access to safe, legal, and affordable abortion, women’s contributions to the workforce and society can be hampered in ways that do not exist for men. In an interview with The Guardian in October, musician Stevie Nicks went as far as to say that Fleetwood Mac likely wouldn't exist were it not for her choice to have an abortion, and there are countless stories like this out there I’m sure.
Beyond pregnancy, there are cultural forces at work in so many workplaces that can affect equality. A great example of this is how both Lizz and Irin intersected with the The Daily Show at very different times and in very different ways. Lizz and Madeline Smithberg developed the show in 1996, before the first host, Craig Kilborn was ever hired. (Craig was suggested by Comedy Central management). Lizz also served as the show’s first head writer.
In 2010, long after Lizz had departed, Irin wrote the article “The Daily Show’s Woman Problem” for Jezebel. It opens with the scathing line: “The Daily Show is many things: progressive darling, alleged news source for America’s youth, righteous media critique. And it’s also a boys’ club where women’s contributions are often ignored and dismissed.” From what I have heard, changes were made after that article was published that have made The Daily Show more inclusive (Desi Lydic backed this up when I interviewed her this summer). Still, it stands out to me that a show originally founded by women could devolve into the workplace described by Irin and her sources.
Clearly, we have a long ways to go in this country to get to true equality, but I feel like being aware of the choices available to pregnant people and making our workplaces more inclusive and adaptable to those needs will benefit all of us in the end. I hope this week’s conversations help spark some thoughts on what those accommodations might look like.
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Episode 61- Irin Carmon
On Monday’s show, I had a really engaging conversation with journalist Irin Carmon. Irin is currently writing for New York Magazine, but she has also worked for NBC News, MSNBC, and Jezebel. Irin is also the coauthor of the amazing Ruth Bader Ginsburg biography Notorious RBG, which we discussed a bit.
Irin was originally scheduled to be a guest when Quarantine Creatives was just getting started in June, but she ended up giving birth to her daughter the day we had originally planned for an interview. It ended up working out better to talk later, as we were able to discuss the learning curve for her and her husband:
“Any partnership where everybody has their dreams and their responsibilities, we’re just really trying to take it one week at a time right now. I think because of the way our jobs are structured, it’s ultimately my husband who is making the sacrifices. But it’s just a constant negotiation, communication thing.”
Justice Ginsburg was more than just a subject for Irin. She served as officiant at Irin and her husband’s wedding, and the equity that Justice Ginsburg and her husband Marty strove for in their marriage has been an inspiration:
“Just even to have this as an aspirational entity, Justice Ginsburg and her husband really did divide the labor to the extent possible. I think with them, it was a lot of also taking turns. There were times in the beginning where his career really took precedence. And then when she started to rise as a litigator and then as a judge, her husband made sacrifices, and he was a huge supporter and promoter of her career in a way that just didn't exist at the time. I mean, this is a couple that got married in the 1950s.”
Irin and I discussed how Justice Ginsburg was certainly a feminist, but that she also fought for larger structural change that redefined traditional gender roles to the benefit of everybody:
“I think her vision was to say that we all need to be liberated from these stereotypes and these strictures together. It was a bold vision, because we still don’t have that, but it was also one that was very expansive. I think it was the same vision that allowed her to, for example, wholeheartedly support LGBTQ rights, because she was not invested in these are mens’ roles and these are womens’ roles, and these are how people are supposed to be in the world, including who they love. But I think it also is what she lived in her own life, and she wanted the law to not limit people’s potential or opportunities.”
With Justice Ginsburg’s passing and Amy Coney Barrett’s appointment, the Supreme Court now leans much further to the right than where the average American is. Irin described the importance of paying attention to the Supreme Court and making it more represenative:
“We have a real disconnect here where, if you look at what people need and want and say that they want: racial equality, gender equality, social justice writ large, that’s a majority of people. But that’s not what we have reflected in our system, and it’s very concerning. I think that the incoming administration can do a lot, but the Supreme Court is for life. I don’t have a good solution for that at all, but I think it’s something we need to be very vigilant about. Part of the reason that Justice Ginsburg put on her snazzy dissenting collar and spoke so often to the public is because she wanted everybody to be paying attention to what was happening, including the dismantling of these really important pieces of legislation that protected people for a long time.”
Irin also helped break the accusations against Charlie Rose for The Washington Post along with Amy Brittain in 2017, just as the #MeToo Movement was gaining steam. She had been tipped off to some of his behavior 7 years earlier as a correspondent for Jezebel, but was not able to confirm the rumors, shelving the reporting. I asked her what it was that made #MeToo the force that it was, and why it seemed like in that moment, the dam finally broke:
“I think Trump’s presidency was part of it. He was credibly accused of sexual harassment and assault by multiple women. There was this first round of people sharing their stories in the fall of 2016 around the Access Hollywood tape, around the allegations against him, and then he was elected anyway. And then there was this taking to the streets for the Women’s March. And I think all of those were early laying the ground work.”
We also had a wider ranging discussion about the future of journalism, in the age of viral social content, consolidations, and a more polarized press and audience. Irin sees a role for news consumers to ensure that they are curating a diverse range of perspectives and engaging in critical evaluation:
“People need to get good, quality information from people they trust and a range of individuals and range of sources too, not just one source. And I think we could all be practicing information hygenie too. To stop before you share, and to fact check, and read multiple sources. It turns out, all of us need to kind of be acting like journalists, lest we be also be carried along the tide of misinformation of the internet.”
If you haven’t yet, you can listen to the full interview. Notorious RBG has been out for about 5 years now, but it’s really worth a look too. It’s a biography full of photos, charts, and other visuals and is a really fun and easy read, which often isn’t the case for that genre.
Episode 62- Lizz Winstead
Comedian Lizz Winstead may not be a household name outside of comedy circles, but her impact on the comedy and media landscape is huge. She co-founded The Daily Show and also served as the show’s first head writer. She was also a co-founder of defunct progressive talk radio network Air America, which helped launch the careers of Rachel Maddow and Marc Maron. Lizz described the front row seat she has had to our current crisis:
“I started out my COVID journey in Brooklyn right at the height of the pandemic, which was this really incredible situation where you try to get out and walk in the world, and there were trucks that had been retrofitted to become mobile morgues. So I was taking all of that in.”
Most comics not only consume the news and observe the world around them, but they help break down those situations for an audience. With comedy clubs closed, Lizz had to find other ways to express herself:
“I think that the way that I’ve been processing a lot of it is the way that I process a lot of things, which is on social media. It’s how I do my writing. It’s how I do my processing. I’ll vent through threads. I did a lot of that, but the difference is, normally when I’m responding and gathering, I then in turn have a stage with which I can turn my thoughts to performance. And not having that was super weird.”
Over the summer, Lizz headed back to her hometown of Minneapolis to be a caretaker for her sister, who was dying of ALS. She witnessed the movement that came out of her city after the death of George Floyd and felt an urgent need to speak out.
That desire ultimately manifested itself as a new comedy special, Corona Borealis: A Night of Comedy Under the Stars. The special has a very DIY quality to it. Lizz and her crew crafted a stage at the edge of lake in Minnesota, her audience was in socially distanced kayaks, and she performed completely untested material before the cameras. She added a second act after the election, which takes place around several fire pits on a cold November evening. Here’s the trailer:
The handmade nature of the special adds a layer of intimacy and vulnerability that would be harder to achieve in a large venue. Lizz sees media getting more democratized in the digital age:
“For years, we were all beholden to a studio system, to networks, to agents, to managers, and then the internet happened and all of a sudden people were making YouTube videos, and then social media and TikTok and all this stuff is happening. The control I have to respond to the world in the way that I do has been put in my hands in an even stronger way, and so I think performers have to say ‘what do I do about this, how do I do this?’”
Lizz also has some thoughts about how technology can both allow for safe production practices but also can quickly lead to creative stagnation that should be considered:
“As we are Zoomed to death for work and for life, how do you make this box that we spend so much time on a place of enjoyment? I think everybody should be getting smart TVs, so at least if you want to shoot something, you can mirror your TV, then you’re watching an experience on your television rather than your laptop. Making sure that if you’re going to try to do performance piece or any kind of art through one of these streaming apps that are like a Zoom-y kind of streaming app, that it doesn’t look like the meeting somebody spent all day in. Creating a background, creating an environment, creating a space where you utilize that is going to be crucial.”
Lizz’s comedy special provided a necessary catharsis to the end of the Trump era, and it shares a lot of DNA with The Daily Show. The special features topical jokes, mostly political in nature, but then it takes a detour into a sit down interview. Lizz welcomes Minneapolis Councilwoman Andrea Jenkins, who is the first Black Transwoman to hold elected office and represents George Floyd’s district. Lizz and Andrea engage in a thoughtful conversation about justice and policing. While I was thoroughly engaged, I noted that most comedy specials don’t have an interview portion. Lizz told me why she chose to include the conversation with Andrea in the way that she did:
“I firmly believe that if your comedy is smart, you can drop in something serious in any space around what you’re doing and get right back to it and do it. It’s not like I dropped it in a transitional spot or at the end. It’s dead center in the middle of my special. And then I go right back into talking about some other serious things and then, it’s like, there it is.”
In 2012, Lizz founded Lady Parts Justice, which then evolved into Abortion Action Force. It’s an advocacy group that works to destigmatize abortion and provide support to abortion providers. Lizz was open about her own abortions and how she thinks the rhetoric needs to change around the procedure:
“A pregnancy to me, and this is a radical thing, but a pregnancy to me is defined by the person that is pregnant, and its value should be placed by the person that is pregnant. If that person has a pregnancy that is wanted and they’re excited, then you go ahead and call that pregnancy a baby, and you go ahead and name it, and do it, and take it and honor it all you want. If somebody is pregnant, and that pregnancy is unintended, unwanted, killing that person, that pregnancy should be taken care of in the way that that person wants to. That person should be able to have an abortion and not feel bad about it.”
This was a really thoughtful interview that covered a lot of ground and is worth a listen. Lizz’s special is a needed exhale after this crazy year. You can rent it or buy it on Vimeo on Demand.
What’s Coming…
On Monday, I have a fascinating look at the radio industry with WCRB-FM Station Manger and General Manager of music at GBH Anthony Rudel. WCRB is our classical radio station here in Boston, and since Anthony joined, he has really innovated the programming, taking many cues from commercial rock stations to increase listenership. Both GBH and WCRB have found really innovative ways to keep live music alive, including preserving the 166 year old tradition of performing Handel’s Messiah for Boston. It could not happen in person this year, but instead, it has become a cross-platform concert for our times.
On Thursday, I will not be uploading a show because of the Christmas holiday. Wishing you all a safe, socially distanced holiday!
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Stay Safe!
Heath